Interview with Phil Crosby
Interview Conducted in 1995
"Those who think of quality as strictly manufacturing oriented have not thought it out. All of my writings are based on people working, not on an industry. All work is a process and all processes can be designed, measured, and improved."
Phil Crosby was a Navy Medic in the Korean war after studying podiatric medicine at Ohio College. He subsequently worked for Bendix-Mishawaka, Martin-Marrietta, and ITT where he formulated his "zero defects" concept. He is the founder of Philip Crosby Associates, Inc., and author of the well-known Quality Is Free.
Aczel: Where did you take your first statistics courses? What did you think of them? Crosby: I studied at the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine, graduating in 1950. I was recalled to the Navy at that time and never practiced medicine. When first working in industry, I took several statistical quality control courses and found them to be committed to the inevitability of error. I learned to understand the statistics used to determine status. Darrel Huff's book How to Lie with Statistics was very helpful to me in that regard.
Aczel: What did you do when you first graduated?
Crosby: My first job after college (and the Korean War) was as a junior technician at the Crosley Corp. in Richmond, Ind. There I realized that my ideas were of prevention, and were picked up in medical studies and experience. Two years later I went to Bendix-Mishawaka Indiana as a reliability engineer. There I began writing and talking about defect prevention and found myself in conflict with the conventional wisdom of quality. Five years after leaving the Navy I went to Martin-Marrietta in Orlando as a senior quality engineer. The next year I became a project quality manager.
Aczel: How did you first get interested in statistics? How did it lead or not lead to your quality efforts?
Crosby: I never really became interested in statistics theory as such. I regarded them as a useful tool. They were often used in manufacturing, but only to control a process here and there. The literature on SQC and SPC was abstract and complex but never seemed to be put into actual practice. All of this motivated my search for a concept of quality management that would actually produce products and services in conformance to the agreed requirements. Statistics was used often, in fact, to show that, theoretically, this could not be accomplished.
Aczel: How did you come up with the title (and the subject material) for your book Quality is Free?
Crosby: The title of Quality Is Free, as explained on the dedication page of the book, came from Harold Geneen, who was CEO of ITT corporation where I worked 14 years. He was my boss and I learned a great deal from him. I defined quality as "conformance to agreed requirements." That meant doing what we said we would do. It didn't cost more to do things right. Expense comes from doing things wrong. When people use acceptable quality level (AQL) and probability of error, they commit to spending more money and time. Zero defects means doing things right the first time.
Aczel: When you were writing it, did you have any expectations about the interest it would generate?
Crosby: I thought QIF would generate interest because it was written specifically for executives in their language. Having served in that role at ITT for 14 years, I knew how to do that. However, I did not think that it would become a classic. Fifteen years later it stills sells 15,000 paperbacks a month in a dozen languages and is used in most colleges.
Aczel: What do you think about the great attention given recently to Deming and his ideas about quality?
Crosby: Dr. Deming was a remarkable man and a great statistician. However he never actually worked in quality management, or ran anything. We will know whether his ideas were useful, or whether people reacted to his personality and style, as time goes on. That which deserves to live, lives. I never met him.
Aczel: What do you think about the state of the teaching of quality and statistics today compared to your own education. Is it better or worse and how so?
Crosby: I would like to see texts relate more to practical cases rather than to the concepts. The workings of math are not that important anymore given the technology of calculators and computers. The real message we need to get out is "What use can management make of these data in meeting the goals of the organization?"
Aczel: Do you follow all the recent conversations/writings about the quality movement in nonmanufacturing settings such as health care, service industries, education, and government?
Crosby: I always considered that every individual was already in the service business. Each of us works to procedures and other agreements whether we are running a lathe or checking a patient into a health care unit. Those who think of quality as strictly manufacturing oriented have not thought it out. All of my writings are based on people working, not on an industry. All work is a process and all processes can be designed, measured, and improved.
Aczel: Is applying Quality Control in those industries likely to lead to significant improvements?
Crosby: Quality Control per se will not help any industry since it is dedicated tot he inevitability of error and the adjustment for it. Quality management, on the other hand, will be a tremendous help because it is based on the prevention of error. Medical people relate to prevention.
Aczel: Is there any advice you would give to students who will be facing the job market in the 21st century?
Crosby: Learn to be useful.
